At one point a classmate chimed in with "it doesn't matter about the scientists, they are all secular anyway"
Hoo boy, was that a red rag to a bull!
Number 1: I'm science trained and she just put me in a basket she knows nothing about. She also dismissed an entire community of people and a whole raft of knowledge.
Number 2: I bet she likes scientists when they are inventing convenient technologies or saving her life
What angered me most though, is that this woman who professes belief in God as creator and therefore in perfect design, was prepared to dismiss the entire area of study which helps us to understand the world.
In my way of thinking, science helps to confirm the existence of a great designer. If we follow this way of thinking, we can't dismiss science when it doesn't suit us, we have to integrate the science into our theology.
I didn't get to say anything in response, my mic was muted and by the time I could have turned it on the class had moved on. I won't be forgetting it though.
I have a feeling I am going to be lobbing some philosophical grenades in class. Someone's gotta do it.
Hoo boy indeed.
ReplyDeleteAs you know I fall into the secular class and I hope that I never, ever dismiss/denigrate whole groups of people on such dodgy evidence.
Definitely red rag material, and I hope you are able to fling those grenades.
I suppose I need to extend some grace, maybe, but I was genuinely shocked and appalled
DeleteOf course you were shocked and appalled. A statement like that is anathema to everything I have learned about you over the years. I would find it hard to extend grace after such a complete condemnation on her part. Your wish to try confirms my thought that you are a much kinder person than I am.
DeleteMy husband said I make too many excuses for people and sometimes that might be right. Kindness easily crosses a line into "walked over"
DeleteGreat topic. And I agree. I think most problems in the world exist because people choose a side. People are made up of many subtle nuances and paradoxes, though I have never seen science and spirituality as being mutually exclusive. I guess I've always just thought science takes a bit longer to figure things out because they are working with the material.
ReplyDeleteThere are sections of the church who believe spirituality and science are mutually exclusive. The polarisation is why the religious right think they can attend church and not get covid.
DeleteI never thought of science as slower but it is, looking for evidence takes more time than dogma.
Yes, you are right re those who think God will protect them. It's a naive way of thinking. I have a traditional Catholic friend who says something about 'do not test your God'. But the charismatics like our PM want easy solutions and reveal themselves as being quite juvenile in their understanding.
DeleteI love the new science - some quantum physicists are straddling both worlds brilliantly. They are 'proving' the existence of something beyond materiality - one area of study being the creation of matter in a vacuum, and the fact that matter is not solid and is in a perpetual state of flux, being created and 'uncreated'. If you are interested I could find some references for you. I love these new developments because they support what I've always believed - that science and God are both valid and real. Some of the scientists working in this field seem to have had some kind of 'conversion' as a result of their research.
references would be great! thank you
DeleteMy brother is a doctor of biochemistry and a committed Christian.
ReplyDeleteI take my hat off to every biochemist, I struggled with it all the way.
DeleteAnd yes, the two can coexist beautifully
My first science teacher was also a committed Christian, I think he'd been a Vicar. Anyhow, we did question him often about what we thought was a contradiction - he put us straight, much as you have done.
ReplyDeleteSx
I'm assuming you were about 12 at that time? I was about to say you were young to ask such questions but maybe not, I think children and young adults are routinely underestimated.
DeleteI find it simpler keeping my spiritual thinking to myself.
ReplyDeleteThere's very little thinking I can keep to myself!
DeleteI sometimes envy people like you :)
It tells me my comment was published but I don't see it and something is definitely wrong with blogger.
ReplyDeleteXO
WWW
oh, well that is disappointing...for us both!
DeleteI wish I knew how to fix it
Go for it. Be the someone.
ReplyDeleteI am chronically short tempered with anything I regard as lazy thinking so you can be assured I'll have things to say. The key is to say it in a way it can be heard ;)
DeleteSometimes it's better if we leave our baggage at the door. Baggage closes our eyes to some critical situations.
ReplyDeleteRed, that's right. Religious baggage is the harmful one here
DeleteI don't understand how people can dismiss science so casually, as if they have no knowledge whatever of all the advances and benefits that science has produced.
ReplyDeleteI'm getting the general impression this person is quite ignorant. And wilfully
DeleteKylie, I understand your point of view that science helps to confirm the existence of a great designer although I would prefer to argue that point than the one that has annoyed you which I think is, of course, both inaccurate and indefensible.
ReplyDeleteSome people I know who are atheist have much higher moral codes than some believers I know.
You're right of course Graham. Argue for, not against.
DeleteI suspect that atheists are more critical thinkers and subject their own moral code to that process
Thank you both. Some years ago I was very offended when a Christian blogger told me that without religion I couldn't have any ethics or morals.
DeleteThat's just a rubbish thing to say to you or to think about anybody.
DeleteIsn't morality the question of right and wrong in a religious framework and ethics the question of right and wrong as absolutes? If my understanding is correct they couldn't even get their definitions right
Lob away, and be sure to let us know the outcome :D
ReplyDeleteThanks Jenny! Im playing a long game and might not see outcomes.i hope I'm wrong about that, though
DeleteMy atheist professor was married to a minister. They got along beautifully. Atheists are often morally superior to religious folk. You can think this over and have your say with a well-thought out reponse.
ReplyDeleteI feel as though people say these things and go unchallenged because the discussion moves on but I hope I get to respond some day
DeleteThere's an example of someone who opens their mouth and speaks without giving much thought about the subject. And having only a fixed point of view and never being questioned about.
ReplyDeleteI can see your chaplaincy program will be keeping you on your toes.
Alphie
You are right, I'm pretty sure this person just spouts off.
DeleteAnd yes, I'm having to think. Also, in adult education they don't give a mark just a competent/ not competent so if I don't get it right I have to go back and start over, which in some ways is more rigorous than any study I've done before