A while back I told you that I had heard an interview with UK entertainer Ben Elton and that it had prompted me to think about God. Mr Elton asserted that God should demand intellectual rigor and it was clear that Ben Elton doesn't think that the Big Guy actually does demand rigor.
I wondered how Elton could come to that conclusion and I didn't agree with him but couldn't seem to progress beyond that. Now maybe I can........
I have been raised in the church and studied biology so I have always had to confront the whole creation vs evolution debate. I don't have a scholarly approach and I suspect that a passionate and persuasive scholar from either side of the debate could eat me alive but this is how I look at it.
If we take the the biblical story of creation to be a poetic or metaphorical account rather than a direct retelling it has a reasonable kind of fit with scientific understanding. The Bible includes plenty of poetry, metaphor and imagery so it is possible, maybe even probable, that there is no great need to regard the story in Genesis as completely inflexible.
One of the arguments of the creationists is that our scientific understanding of the world's beginning is flawed and they're right. The scientific community doesn't have a foolproof model and they don't all agree but that doesn't mean that a big bang/ evolution process didn't happen, it just means that we don't have all the puzzle pieces. Maybe God doesn't want us to have them all and He would be in charge, right?
Christians believe in an all powerful God, an incomprehensible, ever present God. We believe in a God who can make a virgin a mother, raise the dead and turn water to wine so why can't we believe that this incompehensible, all powerful being might have made the universe and our earth through a careful and logical process, one that is commonly called evolution?
Christians are called to glorify God. If we choose to believe that the universe was created in an "abracadabra it's there" kind of way, where God clicks his fingers and it's done, how much glory does it bring Him?
If we consider the intricacies of nature, the phenomenal design, the amazing logic, the fine balance, the majesty of it all and then we give the credit to a divine being who thought it all through in a way that no human ever could and made it happen in a seemingly spontaneous fashion doesn't that glorify Him?
If we can catch a glimpse of His mind through our imperfect understanding of our world doesn't that magnify his greatness?
Coming back to Ben Elton's comments: doesn't the scope of this topic alone show that God demands rigor? Only an incomprehensibly amazing intellect could think of all this stuff. He's got a sense of humour too, don't you think that the sight of us all doing backflips over something we just don't understand would be hilarious for Him?
If we insist on a version of a God who works in a magical and miraculous way but never by long, thoughtful and possibly laborious processes aren't we belittling Him?
Hi Kylie,
ReplyDeletehere is a link to check the uses of rose water http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosewater
take care
love
bindi
thanks bindi, will have a look
ReplyDeleteHello my dear. It's late and I'm tired, but I'm sitting here thinking, "That girl is just too smart for me!" Wow, that was thoughtful and so beautifully written. I want Rob's dad to read it. He's dying as you know, and I don't think he's still able to use the computer, but if he is, I'd like him to see this. His doctoral dissertation was intitled "The Will of God." Unfortunately, Rob and I have never read it. It was so good it was published (decades ago), but Dad can't find his copy and we can't find it either. Perhaps some day.
ReplyDeleteI'm not religious and neither is Rob despite the fact my Dad's Catholic, my Mom's Protestant, my Grandmother was Catholic, but left the church to become a Jehovah's Witness and Rob's dad is a retired Methodist minister! We're obviously spiritual, but don't affiliate ourselve with one particular religion. If I had to go to church however, I think I'd go to a Methodist church, but the minister would have to be Dad because he's very progressive and thoughtful (or someone like him).
When I was a teenager and all through my years in college, and until she died, my Grandmother and I would debate evolution vs. creation. She was obviously a creationist and I was not. We had very lively debates as you might imagine! It was very hard for me to take science classes and think myopically. I wanted so much to convince her she was terribly mistaken, but I never changed her view, nor she mine. I realized the answer was simple. There is no answer. We will never know the will of God, how we got here, why we're here, if there even is a God, how earth was created. There simply is no absolute answer and so we struggle to make sense of something we can't.
Your post is amazing. Thank you for taking the time to write it. Seriously, I think it's amazing (I'm going to have to read it a number of times).
Love you,
Suze
thankyou so much suzanne. i have been thinking about this post for a while so it's nice to get some feedback.
ReplyDeletei won't get into this too much now but i have to tell ya...if it's late and you're tired don't think you have to write me. i'm sure that i'm not too smart for you, either
xx
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteHi Kylie,
ReplyDeleteRe deleted post that was me. Too many spelling errors.
I was asking are you affected by the recent storms?
M.
Hello Kylie,
ReplyDeletePersonally, I don’t conform to a Puritanical observance of doctrine. My faith and worship in the Anglican Church is somewhat more liberal. I don’t see why people can’t subscribe to the ‘big bang theory’ and at the same time believe in a God who created the Universe as we understand it. Vis a Vis the Gospel of John, Chapter One, Verses 1 – 5. I agree that we are belittling the divine nature of God if we subscribe to the view of Him foisted upon children in some Sunday schools.
Biblical scholars also assert that, after God breathed life into us that it is the Holy Spirit that sustains us.
Thank you for this post and like Suzanne, I will be revisiting it over the next few days.
M.
hi mark,
ReplyDeleteno, no problem with storms here...lots of rain but that's ok, plenty of time for blogging or baking or whatever. thanks for asking.
thanks for your comments on my post, it is good to hear the voice of a "liberal".
i am a salvationist and aware that we really don't have the more academic tradition of you anglicans, so i look forward to your input to my musings in the future.
kylie
ps: i guess i expect no less from you than some tough self editing but i don't mind if your comments aren't well spelled and thanks for clearing that up....those deleted comments kill me with curiosity :)
suze,
ReplyDeletecan you print it out for rob's dad?
i can change my colours to a more printable choice if you like, just say. i think that the email optin on the posts chews up the paragraphing, but i may be wrong.
a doctoral thesis on the will of God? that i would like to read.i hope, no pray, that you find it. i have wondered how robs dad was doing but feared asking in case he had died and i hadn't realised, that would be awful.thinkin of you all, anyway.
if i'm hearing you right, you have some faith but have been somewhat alienated by the dogma of the church. i could have been the same but some part of me recognised my need for the structure and teaching and community of the church, so i choose to use the church as a starting point for my spiritual life, while believing that ultimately it is a personal journey.
as you will have seen in my comments to mark, i'm a salvationist, our founder was a methodist , so it's closely related.
i think that the the will of God is knowable to a point, as i believe that we have some but not all answers to creation.
i hesitate to comment on religion too much because it can be so divisive and my answers inadequate, but i appreciate your enthusiasm for my thoughts and your generally encouraging presence online.
bless you
k
Hi Sweetie!
ReplyDeleteWell it's late again, and I'm tired, but can't sleep. I left a funny post on Peter's blog about menopause and my mom. I'm really struggling with this crap! I have never had a sleeping issue until recently. It's making me nutty (perhaps I should get the peanuts out of my pocket!).
It's was wonderful to hear from Peter (also a relief). He's going to be just fine and it will be fun to share this adventure with him.
I was just talking to Ludmilla in Brazil. Have you spoken with her? She's such a dear soul and going through a bit of a rough time as a 25 year old. The usual stuff: questioning life, parent problems, trying to find answers. We've all been there.
You're idea to simply print your post for Dad is brilliant. How easy. I'll try printing it tomorrow in black and white and if that works, terrific, if not I'll contact you for a color change. And yes, Dad is still alive (thanks for your concern). After he was released from the hospitial to basically go home and die, he had a mild stroke a few days later. He was just released from the hospital again, about a week ago. It's a waiting game now and that's a terrible thing. None of us want him to suffer, we'd rather he die quietly in his sleep and being such a practical man, I'm sure that's what he hopes for as well. The last time we spoke he made me laugh so hard when we were discussing his longevity despite his failing heart, and he said, "Well honey, you know I have a direct line to God!"
Some how, some way we will find "The Will Of God," but apparently only with God's help! When we do, I will send you a copy. I expect we'll be friends a long, long time, so be prepared, it may take a decade or so to sift though all his stuff.
Now about faith and religion. This may sound strange, but I've always felt...hummmmmmmm...I'm stuck. I don't know how to express this properly. I've never felt the need to rely on God to help me solve problems or figure out my life. I've always felt confident I could do that myself. Additionally, taking as many art history survey classes and history classes as I have, I became keenly aware of the thread that runs through the centuries causing pain and havoc...religion. Yes it brought us great art, architecture and culture, but at what cost? Conflict, war, etc., has generally revolved around religion and I have a problem with that because it seems so hypocritical. The current, insane war in Iraq is a perfect example. I don't get it. I don't get how there can only be one right religion and everyone thinks their's is the right one and that people of faith can cause so much suffering all in the name of their God (on both sides). It makes absolutely no sense to me. All I know is a hundred years from now a student will take a history survey class, and the Iraq War will simply be part of the thread I became aware of all those years ago in college and still see today.
Do I believe in God? Yes. However, I don't think God is a "he." Rather, I think God is in everything and so gender doesn't really play a roll for me. I just enjoy the fact that God is hangin' around if I need a bit of comfort or inspiration.
Hope that helps explain things honey! I could write a lot more, but I'll let you digest this first! Have a great day. I see from the Australian Open the weather isn't too lovely.
Thanks for keeping in touch. It's an absolute pleasure talking to you. And thanks for making me think.
Love you,
Suze
kylie...I have read your post several times over this week and have been disecting your thoughts in wonder...not because they are new thoughts to me, but because you are so insightful!
ReplyDeleteJames 1:5...reads,"...If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God..."
Kylie...I know you will find that many of your thoughts will be solidified and many of your questions answered, just keep on asking!
I have many thoughts and specific references to your blog post here that may help...let me know if you would like to me to share those with you :)
Have a super weekend!
~KJ
Hi Kylie,
ReplyDeleteTonight is my first visit to your blog, and I have to say that it was very thought provocing. Last summer my husband and I were dealing with his mother's death and this was our first Christmas without her. My parents are also ailing so we sometimes feel that the world is closing in on us. He heart ache and the suffering that we watched my husbands parents go through when they died caused my belief in God and my feeling about religon to falter. I cannot say that I have ever fit in with any traditional denomination. I we to a Southern Baptist church when I was younger, but my parents were not church goers. They always left that decision up to us. I am still struggling and searching my soul and looking for answers about God and about what I should belive in. My past experiences tell me that there must be something after death. I truly do not believe that this life is all we get. I do want to thank you for this post. It makes one think, and in doing so, keeps us on our toes.
kaneischa, you can send all the comments you want (will i regret saying that?)
ReplyDeletei enjoy the process of thinking through stuff, so any comment is good.
my aim here was not so much to ask questions but to put my thoughts out there, to make church people think twice and to let people outside of the church know that some from inside the church are not entirely arrogant in our beliefs.
thanks for your comment
k
suze and cecile, i'm not ignoring you but need time to respond with a respectful level of thought.
ReplyDeletethanks for visiting cecile, hope to see you back
:)
How long do you think that will take? I'm 48. I probably only have a good 30 years left.
ReplyDeleteXO Suze
suze, you cheeky brat, for that you wait.
ReplyDeleteNow that is funny!
ReplyDeletedoin it now, maam
ReplyDeletesuze,
ReplyDeletei read your comment on menopause...poor thing. the upside is you can blog away when you're not sleeping. have you tried herbal medicine?
had a quick look at ludmillas latest post, will probably drop her a line tomorrow, have never spoken to her before. oh, to have the younger body and the extra experience.
i hope rob's dad goes peacefully, there's no doubt that old age, chronic illness and death can get pretty unpleasant for all involved and of course those who are left have to summon the energy for funerals and sorting stuff and wills and grief.
yes, a whole lot of bad stuff has been done in the name of God. it's a shame that any god has to be judged by their human representatives, we fail so often. i agree with you on that but i hope that there is enough good in enough people that we can all get at least a glimpse of a higher power.
i also agree that using "he" for God is slightly distasteful but i use it by default...she would be equally wrong and "it" is just plain wrong.
i consider myself to be pretty competent and usually able to manage life but the more often you think of God for comfort or inspiration (as you do) the more natural it becomes. if you're getting some teaching in the subject you start realising just how often it can be applied and the whole thing snowballs.
i could also say a lot more but washing up awaits
kylie
cecile,
ReplyDeleteon re-reading your comment i don't have too much to say.as i said to suzanne, illness and death get pretty ugly and confronting, don't they and i'm sorry that you're finding it tough.
all i can say about your belief in and questioning of God is that everyone follows a different path and sometimes it's like driving behind a truck but if you acknowledge His(or her) existence and ask for better understanding it will come.
i sound like a lunatic, don't i? a real bible basher.
i am, in fact, just as normal and just as eccentric as your average joe and if you can deal with the southern baptists i should be a piece of cake.
if you get any great (or tiny) revelations let me know.
god bless
Hey!
ReplyDelete- Haven't tried herbal meds yet, but will because my neighbor left some with me before she and her hubby rented out their home and moved to another house in the mountains.
- Please do stop by to chat with Ludmilla. She's such a beautiful person. You two will get on brilliantly. And yes, oh to have that beautiful body with all the experience we have! That would be too much fun. When she posts photos I put them on my homepage for a few days because for some reason, her smile makes me laugh and fills me with joy. So every time I log on or off, I'm laughing. It's great medicine. I was going to tell her in my next comment, but she can read it here now that she's going to get to know you.
-Death, funerals, etc. I'm no good at them. My tree began the process of leaving us today and here I am because every time I try to type my new post I start crying. The tree is going and Dad is dying. What would Martha Stewart do?
-God. You're right, about so many thing. Perhaps I'll find what you have over the next decades. One never knows. For now I'm content with having God around for support and inspiration. And no, I don't blame individuals for the collective pain of the world and especially for the pain caused by religions. However, I do think we all bear some degree of responsibility. And yes, two sentences in direct conflict with one another. Why? For the simple reason it's hard to imagine we play a roll because it's easier to think we don't.
I love how you make me think, about a whole lotta' stuff. It's good brain exercise.
My morning is just about to begin so I imagine you're about to snooooooooze. Talk to you soon and thanks for always keeping in touch and being a dear friend.
I love you,
Suze xo
I like how you express Theology - after all it's only God talk and that's how we express the individual journey we are each on. I like to think that we are fellow pilgrims who can laugh, be surprised, know delight, think, cry, rest, appreciate, be at peace etc etc.
ReplyDeleteAs I work my way through this blog I laugh, think, and am so grateful that Kylie has decided to share her/your world with me.