For a while now I have wanted to write a post about religion and me, a bit of back story maybe.
I was raised in the church and the life of faith became part of my identity. Even when I was unsure about the faith part, I was there for community and the faith part gave me something to think about or to strive for.
When I started blogging (2007, I think) I didn't mention my religious life because I didn't want to bring any kind of disrepute to the church or to God and who knew what I might say or do to cause somebody to see the church or God as a problem when it might have really been me.
After quite a long time, I found it hard to leave that part of my life completely off the blog and I also thought it might not hurt for my readers to see that there are Christian people who are or who try to be progressive, inclusive, humble and who understand that everything about Christianity sounds like a myth.
The fairy in the sky, the idea of a perfect God sacrificing a perfect son when the God doing the sacrificing is also the one making the rules: why would they make a situation like that?
Well, I still understand that it sounds like nonsense. I still know that I might have been hoodwinked. I still know that I don't have any answers to the really curly questions.
And still, I persist. The framework of Christianity works for me as a system for creating meaning, it works as a moral and ethical standard, it works as a source of community. The theological questions and the little bit of bible study I do are interesting as a study of literature, sociology, mythology etc. Biblical studies could probably keep me academically interested for the rest of my life.
I'm thinking as I go and I know the majority of you are atheists or at the very least agnostic so you won't agree with any of this and I expect that. What I find hard is when people who have no religion (and I'm not talking about bloggers here, just a general principle) start to edge into disrespect just because religion is there, existing. A lot of the criticisms aimed at the institutional church are valid, maybe all of them are. The religious right appalls me, I don't think I an guilty of fragile Christianity, I don't consistently think I'm being persecuted. Actually, I don't ever think I'm being persecuted because I'm not.
What makes me sad and mad, is when there is disrespect to the idea of a life lived in faith, when people have cast aside any form of religious belief and think that we all should do the same. If I am able to respect the idea of no god, a different god, karma, reincarnation, paganism or whatever it is that inspires people, i wonder why they can't do that for me.
I do have faith and am religious (even though I do curse a bit). I am not trying to persuade anyone who has no faith to believe as I do, but I do resent those with no beliefs trying to intrude on mine, which has happened.
ReplyDeleteAnne, I curse too. I don't think it says anything about the state of a person's heart.
DeleteThanks for getting it
Thank you for this post. As you know I am agnostic (at best) but I do hope that I don't force my beliefs on anyone else.
ReplyDeleteEC , you unfailingly believe the best of people and let them get on with their life as they see fit.
DeleteYou always have.
Mind you, I have been intensely irritated when religious people have told me (several times) that I can have NO moral compass without religion.
DeleteYea that's just wilful ignorance
DeletePeople are so weird about religion. Yes, the people who should be tolerant are the most intolerant. And, some people see the good in another person who is not particularly religious and just have to inject their idea of what another should be doing. Overly religious and critical people are annoying to me.
ReplyDeleteWe all have our blind spots. I just hope mine are small
DeleteWhat you're preaching is freedom of religion and that's what it's all about. Non believers should leave believers alone. Believers should not preach to the believers. the problems come when people "have " to disagree with others.
ReplyDeleteI didnt think of it as religious freedom because I feel I have that but maybe you're right. I just don't like it when people are disparaging.
DeleteI have friends who are atheists. Everyone in small town assumes they are all liars, immoral, thieves when the opposite is true. They are good people, helping homeless and oppressed that the good Christians don't think are worthy of care or respect.
ReplyDeleteIf a person has put in enough thought to declare themselves an atheist, there's a good chance they have put in some thought about social justice.
DeleteUnfortunately there is a large cohort of "Christians" who don't think too much and don't feel the label requires anything of them
I don't think about this enough. I'm a non-religious sort, but some of my closest friends have been religious, or are religious. One of them did go too far for me to tolerate, I guess. We didn't argue, but we drifted apart.
ReplyDeleteAnyhow, I do appreciate the sense of community that religion can bring - and in small villages it does bring people together.
Sx
There is a big difference between seriously religious people and the more secular types, i can understand it scuppering a friendship.
DeleteI'm sure you have your own systems for getting through life
"What makes me sad and mad, is when there is disrespect to the idea of a life lived in faith". Agreed. As you know, I'm an atheist but I respect whatever helps people to cope with life's difficulties, and if that happens to be religion, fine by me.
ReplyDeleteI'm always just a tiny bit surprised by the certainty of atheism, there is so much we don't understand or know, don't you think there are unknown forces?
DeleteBut why would I assume there are unknown forces? I prefer to believe in what I can verify with my senses.
DeleteJust because so many inexplicable things happen.
DeleteNot trying to change your mind, nick
I was strictly religious. But, the bug bit, I let all that go especially with the church scandals and the lack of care for helpless children including deferring court cases endlessly. I decided to live life by one main rule "be kind" and I try to do that. I don't believe religion has any authority over morals and the worst of it is appalling including genital mutilations in the name of god and adultery killings, etc.
ReplyDeleteBut I respect anyone who chooses to believe and I wish the same for those who don't.
XO
WWW
Be Kind is a very good rule.
DeleteThings like genital mutilation or adultery killings didnt come into my thinking when I wrote this, in fact I wasn't thinking of active harm at all. I want my religious freedom but not if it means others can get away with things like conversion therapy and harming children.
I appreciate your openness and candor but it gives me pause. As a Christian, I often think of verses from the Bible when I'm reading something or listening to someone. For example, you said, "I don't consistently think I'm being persecuted. Actually, I don't ever think I'm being persecuted because I'm not." And I remember the verse "All that live godly lives will suffer persecution" . In your reply to Anne's comment, you said, "I curse too. I don't think it says anything about the state of a person's heart." And I remember the verse "Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh." I'm not trying to be insulting. You are just making me very confused.
ReplyDeleteSorry. That Anonymous above was me.
DeleteHi Robert,
DeleteI have experienced hardship in my life, whether that was persecution due to my faith or whether it was just life's vicissitudes, I don't know. What I was trying to say is I'm not one of those people who thinks they are being persecuted every time there's something i disagree with.
With regard to cursing, I don't blaspheme but I will swear for comedic effect or as a form of expression. I don't swear AT people and I'm careful about the audience. I know probably none of this washes with you, maybe I need to change my attitude or maybe I'm just defiant.
"Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh." I can only answer this with anecdote. I know a man who says everyone he meets is an idiot, even his own children. To me this is much more an indication of a persons heart than an occasional swear word. I'm far from perfect and I say things I shouldn't but in general I think my mouth speaks good over people.
I grew up with people substituting silly words for swear words: drat, dang, blow. I always knew what word they wanted to use and it just seemed a bit dishonest to me.
You're a salt of the earth, upright kinda guy Robert and i respect that
I am atheist but I try to live and let live, and see each person for how they treat others, not for their religious beliefs. I believe in science and in kindness. I also believe that we have only one life to live and we should try to do the best with it that we can. I believe there is some force that created our universe but I do not believe in the concept of a god or gods in the way they are presented in established religions. Having stated all that, I still have to find a way to live with the results of my daughter's shift from being an independent thinker to being a staunch Roman Catholic, married to another staunch RC convert, and the effects her bowing to her husband's authority have had on her and their children. It is not easy. I do see how religion provides comfort to many who would not find it otherwise. Thank you for the chance to talk about this, kylie. It's a brave thing to open your blog to this discussion.
ReplyDeletejenny-o, I am beginning to think my concept of God is pretty far from the traditional image. Well, on second thoughts, I probably have a very traditional image of God but want to expand my understanding.
DeleteScience and kindness are things I also believe in. I think God pretty much IS science and kindness.
I love that you are in a continual state of refining your understanding; it's a good approach to life in general. I'm still doing that with my feelings about gods and atheism, too. Lifelong learning, I think it's called :)
DeleteKylie, I feel I may have overstepped in my comment. Please feel free to tell me if I have. I struggle with accepting the negatives that I feel have come from my daughter's and son-in-law's devotion to their religion.
ReplyDeleteYou didn't overstep at all, my dear. If I'm going to write these things I have to be prepared for whatever comment it provokes. i am incredulous that anyone not born RC would become one, simply because it's so traditional and usually conservative but I guess they have their reasons.
DeleteThank you for your understanding and openness, kylie. Yes, I was incredulous, too, when my daughter told me what she had done. But she was attending a RC-based university, had a load of new RC friends, and suffers from mental health and physical health problems, and I believe the structure of religion helped her deal with those problems. I'm not sure I'd agree that it was the best thing to help her deal with them, but it was the thing she chose. So my agreement or disagreement isn't really the point. The point is that she found something that worked for her. Things could be worse. My neighbour's daughter cut off her parents from her life and her children's lives over a single disagreement (not religion-related). It's like a death in the family for her, but without a socially accepted way to mourn. What a tragedy, in my opinion.
DeleteMy online wanderings suggest that this idea of "going no contact" as they call it is becoming pervasive. I have wanted to write a post about it but I'm not sure what I want to say. And yes, what a tragedy
DeleteYes, I started becoming aware of kids cutting off their parents after learning what was happening with my neighbour. I see it as going hand in hand with the idea that anything that happened to a person as a child that they didn't like is now considered "toxic" instead of just part of growing up. I know there is a line somewhere, and there is and was definitely child abuse, but this movement seems so much more than that. Weren't allowed to run the household? Toxic!
Delete